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Author Topic: No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?  (Read 2914 times)

klwilbur

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No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?
« on: February 16, 2010, 01:16:22 PM »
So I'm getting to the end of configuring everything on my Powermax Pro and I've come to a final stumbling block.

I've just installed a number of X-10 light switches and I was ready to configure my system to turn on all the X-10 lights if an alarm was triggered.  Seems reasonable...someone breaks into the house and all the lights go on.  Pretty simple.

However, I don't see any way for this to happen.  I can get all x-10 lights to flash (although it happens VERY slowly because the x-10 switches are dimmers), but not exactly useful.

I see you can have the lights come on when you set the alarm or disarm the alarm.  You can have them come on when an alarm gets into memory (which doesn't happen until an alarm is disarmed).  You can have sensors trigger the x-10 lights, but not specifically when there is an alarm...so it would happen all the time.  So, no way to have them come on when an alarm is triggered??????  That seems like the most simple need you could have.

Am I missing something?  Or does anyone have a unique way to configure things that would allow for this?

Thanks,

Kelly
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 06:09:21 PM by klwilbur »

DEDONSEC

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Re: No way for alarm to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 02:05:28 PM »
I believe alarm memory will flash the lights, etc. as the alarm is triggered (the name is a bit misleading).

klwilbur

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Re: No way for alarm to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 02:40:20 PM »
Deleted...redundant.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 04:16:17 PM by klwilbur »

klwilbur

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Re: No way for alarm to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2010, 02:46:02 PM »
Deleted...redundant
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 04:16:32 PM by klwilbur »

klwilbur

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Re: No way for alarm to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 03:20:37 PM »
More clues...
Went ahead and set an X10 light to memory.  Set abort time to 0. Set cancel time to 0.  However, I do have a 15 sec entry delay.  Here's what happens...

If a sensor is triggered, it starts my 15 sec entry delay but not my x-10 light. Then the alarm goes off (because it has not been disabled), but still no x-10 light.  I waited almost 3 minutes letting the alarm go on and still no light.

However, if another sensor is triggered (after the 15 sec entry delay and alarm has been going off) then the x-10 light DOES come on.

I tried eliminating the entry delay...that allowed for the x-10 light to come on with the alarm, but there was about a 10 second lag from when the alarm was triggered (maybe this is normal).

So right now, it seems like the only way for an alarm to trigger the x-10 light is to have no entry delay.

Can anyone else check my logic?

Thanks,

Kelly
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 04:26:17 PM by klwilbur »

klwilbur

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Re: No way for alarm to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 04:25:05 PM »
This looks like it might be a Visonic internal programming limitation.

It appears that when a perimeter zone is triggered, it triggers the alarm and immediately commits the alarm to memory, thus triggering anything that relies on alarm memory (like x-10 modules).

However, when a delay zone is triggered and the delay expires (setting off the alarm), the initial event that started the delay does NOT commit the alarm to memory (even though the alarm is going off).  Therefore, anything that relies on alarm memory (like x-10 devices) is unable to respond.  In this case, the alarm eventually goes into memory only after the alarm is disabled by the user OR when/if another zone is triggered AFTER the delay expires.

Can anyone else confirm that this is the case?  I still am willing to admit I have some setting wrong if that is the case.

Thanks,

Kelly

forwill

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Re: No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 06:57:14 AM »
I like the flashing lights with siren .  If I'm not home, the more creepy and uncomfortable it is for a burglar the better. Plus, if all your exterior lights are flashing, neighbors will know where the siren sound is coming from and probably try to see what is going on there.
 If I'm home, the first thing I'll do before investigating an alarm is disarm anyhow. You can have all lights come on after a disarm for several lengths of time using the pulse feature. This will allow you to quickly investigate without stumbling around. 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 07:07:08 AM by forwill »

klwilbur

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Re: No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 12:49:29 PM »
I tried the flashing lights, but since my switches are dimmers, you get a SLOOOOOWWWW flash.  However, that might be interpreted as creepy.  I now wish I hadn't gotten dimmers, but it looks like the ones that don't dim were three times the price...and screw it, I just wired 5 one-way switches and 4 two-way switches...I don't think I want to wire another switch again.

Is your siren an x-10?  If so, have you noticed anything like I have seen (no trigger at all if a delay sensor is activated or a ~10-sec delay if a perimeter sensor is activated)?

Thanks,

Kelly

MmmDee

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Re: No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2010, 02:14:41 PM »
Remember that X10 does NOT work during a power failure, so be sure you have regularly powered (AC and battery) and wired sounders to alert you in the event of something bad, for example during a fire which knocks out the power, or a neighborhood blackout when burglars might be more prone to be out and about.

twisted

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Re: No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2010, 02:22:12 PM »
OP, I think your modules must be the new style (X10Pro?) which have soft-start, which is slow-rise-to-full-brightness.  You can still find cheap X10-old dimmers which can snap the lights on and off.  This works well with the PM+/Pro setting to "flash all X-10 in alarm".  You have keep modules that you don't want to flash, on a different housecode.

It sounds like you are linking "alarm memory" condition to specific X10 module activation - that is not the same as flash-all-X10-in-alarm.  

I don't understand the different response you are seeing regarding zone types.  Maybe you missed an X10 association with a specific zone.

klwilbur

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Re: No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 05:05:49 PM »
MmmDee, good point and I agree.  I am only using the X-10 to trigger inside lights as a bonus...not as a critical part of the alarm.

Twisted...they might be new style modules...not sure:
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-990-ws4777-x10-3-way-wall-switch-module.aspx
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-989-ws467-x10-remote-wall-dimmer.aspx

Yes, I see the distinct difference between the "alarm memory" and the "flash-all-x10-in-alarm"  The "flash all" option seems to work fine in my system (except for the slow fade issue).  However, I was originally trying to just get the lights on via the "alarm memory" link.

Yes Twisted, I don't understand it either...I tried the setup with all my zones set to perimeter and I've tried it with all my zones set to delay.  I didn't have the x-10 set to link to a zone...it was set to link to "memory" so it didn't matter what zone was tripped.

I welcome anyone to give it a try.  Set an x-10 light to "memory" and then trigger your alarm with a zone set to "delay."  I believe you will find that tripping the zone will set off your delay, but not the x-10 light which is perhaps expected...but you would expect the x-10 light to come on once the delay has expired and the alarm is initiated...but it does not.

As I posted before, I believe this is because with the delay zones, the PM Pro will set off the alarm after the delay has expired, but it doesn't register the alarm in the memory until the system is disarmed.

This is contrary to the perimeter zones which when they are tripped, the PM Pro sets off the alarm and immediately registers the alarm in the memory (which sets off any x-10 device linked to memory).

At least this is the way it is looking to me.  Once again, I am willing to admit error if you can't duplicate this on your devices.

Thanks,

Kelly

twisted

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Re: No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2010, 06:10:16 PM »
Kelly, sorry every time I've seen this thread, it's already after my family is in bed so I'll try testing this weekend.

Your setup seems clear, MEMORY condition must be set, which should occur immediately when your panel is in alarm because it should have recorded in event log.  I don't remember specifically if my PM+ acts this way but assume - I'll test using MEMORY condition soon.

klwilbur

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Re: No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2010, 07:25:16 PM »
Thanks twisted.  I was accept defeat but I'm happy you'll try to test it.

When testing with your memory condition on an x-10 device, try to trip your alarm using both a perimeter sensor for the first test (to set off the alarm immediately) and a delay sensor.

I predict tripping the perimeter sensor will immediately set off the alarm AND the x-10 device.

I predict tripping the delay sensor will set off the alarm after the delay has expired, but the x-10 device won't come on.

However, I hope that someone with a PM Pro system might have a chance to confirm this as our software might be subtly different.

Thanks for trying though!

Kelly

twisted

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Re: No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2010, 01:17:52 PM »
ok testing done.  Here is the setup, I used a lamp on appliance module D07 to indicate specific X10 command status.  Turned off SMS and Private-phone reporting.  Configured OUTPUTs D07 to turn ON when MEMORY, OFF when DISARM, all other conditions DISABLE.  Powerhorns and flash-all-x10-in-alarm is enabled.  Door entry delay set for 15 (normally 0), no abort time etc.  X10 chime instead of panel delay beeps.

Test1 delay with flash-all: Arm Home.  Wait 30 seconds - no reason.  Open door close door.  Entrance delay beep chime.  15 seconds, MEMORY is set, hardwired horns and strobes sound, 1-2 seconds the D07 light goes on, 7-8 seconds Powerhorns sound.  X10 modules are flashing so house lights are flashing in multiple rooms and D07 light is now flashing. about 20 seconds.  I think we'll start barfing soon.  Disarm.  D07 light off.

Test2 delay with no-flash:  Arm Home, same as Test1, except D07 turns on and does not flash, house lights don't flash and Powershorns silent.  Disarm, D07 light off

Test3 no-delay with flash-all:  Arm Away.  Wait 2-3 minutes for motions inhibition to timeout.  Kitchen zone is Interior Follower, if the door stays closed then there is no delay, like Perimeter).  Then wife cooking triggers the kitchen - no delay chime.  MEMORY is set, lights and horns and D07 respond in alarm etc same as Test1.

Test4 no-delay with no-flash: Arm Away. same response as Test3 without flashing lights and Powerhorns.

So conclusion - I dunno what the root difference is other than I'm using PM+.  I think you said your PMPro MEMORY doesn't get set until DISARM - that would do it and that is a significant difference.

One point I want to make - so many conditions can command each X10 module that it is easy to make accidental command associations or miss the one you intended.  So you should map all the X10 device commands, every condition in your panel.  In my manual there is Appendix B for this purpose.  If you use the programmer tool then the mapping is built-in.

klwilbur

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Re: No way for alarm (w/entry delay) to trigger x-10 on?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2010, 07:46:17 PM »
Twisted, thanks for doing so much testing to look into this.

So conclusion - I dunno what the root difference is other than I'm using PM+.  I think you said your PMPro MEMORY doesn't get set until DISARM - that would do it and that is a significant difference.

I agree...our software is probably sufficiently different (although similar) between our models that subtle software issues like this are bound to be different.

Just to clarify...I believe the PMPro memory doesn't get set until disarm when a delay sensor is tripped.  The memory appears to get set immediately upon a perimeter sensor being tripped.

And this is only based on the fact that in my case the x-10 units are set to turn on by alarm memory and that they DON'T go off from delay sensors but they DO go off from perimeter sensors.

Actually, I need to go back and test the "x-10 flash" mode (so far I have only been talking about x-10 activity being linked to alarm memory and the "x-10 flash" is in a different menu).  Previously, I DID see the x-10 devices flash when a perimeter sensor was triggered but I dont' remember if I tried the same thing with a delay sensor.  I'll see if I can check this out and I'll post back.

Thanks again and hopefully someone with a PMPro can put this to rest.

 

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