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Author Topic: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)  (Read 18688 times)

Hendrick

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Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« on: December 11, 2006, 12:52:59 AM »
Hi,

For the past 2-4 years my alarm hasn't worked. It was installed in 1999 and it is OEM DSC 5010 or 5008 (I will post an image tomorrow).

I noticed that the sensor light on the input board was on ever since the system failed to arm.
I tried bypassing the number 5 sensor today and I was able to arm the system.

I think the problem is to do with the number 5 PIR, I checked the PIR and it was responsive, I opened up the 'can' and found the installers did a half-assed job with resistors and spare cables littering the box...

Would anyone help me solve this problem? It would be greatly appreciated...

Regards,

Hendrick

Ken_in_Pittsburgh

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2006, 07:43:00 AM »
Hi Hendrick,

      I'm gathering that when you say "I noticed that the sensor light on the input board was on" you mean that the zone light on the keypad was on.  If you bypassed that zone and got a ready light, that was a big step toward solving the problem. So let's look at that PIR. Just because the red light comes on when you walk in front of the PIR, that's not a guarantee that it's working properly. Yes, it is "responding," but it may not be closing the zone circuit. If you want to find out, open the PIR and disconnect the two zone wires (not the ones connected to + and -). Twist them together and see if the zone now appears closed on the keypad. If so, replace the PIR; it's easy, and they're cheap. If not, come back, and we'll go from there.

                     --Ken

Hendrick

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2006, 10:40:55 AM »
Thanks Ken,

I will try that today.

Regards,

Hendrick

Hendrick

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2006, 11:58:48 AM »
Hi Ken,

I twisted the NC/C Wires together (zone wires) but the PIR still appeared open on the keypad.

Regards,

Hendrick
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 12:24:28 PM by Hendrick »

Ken_in_Pittsburgh

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2006, 12:56:42 PM »
Ok, that's a good start. I didn't ask you if your system uses End-Of-Line Resistors (you said you found some in the can, but were they connected or just chillin'?)...... was one of those wires inside the PIR attached to a resistor? If so, the wires should be joined with the resistor in between; in other words, they shouldn't touch each other for the test, but rather each side of the resistor.  Next step: look inside the can. First of all, are there resistors between the zone wires and the Z or COM terminals? It's not a big deal either way, but we have to know what we're dealing with. Find the two wires connected to Z5 and the COM just to its right. Gently tug on them to see if they are securely connected. If they seem loose or pull out, you'll need a small screwdriver to secure them in those terminals. Let me know what you find.

                              --Ken

Hendrick

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2006, 07:52:05 PM »
Hi Ken,

My system has 4 PIR and 1 glass breaker...

The terminal of the alarm board within the 'can' is as follows:

| Z1 | COM | Z2 | Z3 | COM | Z4 | Z5 | COM | Z6 |
------------------------------------------------
| N- | -N- | N- | N- | -N- | R- | N- | -N- | R- |


Key: N = no resistor
     R = 5.6k resistor (note, has bell, aux, etc. but did not need to put it in diagram)

I went to my Z2 PIR and I found that it was wired differently, it had a white wire running to C, a resistor from NC to TAMP-right and a green wire to TAMP-left
(note that I looked at the alarm board and found that white wires were hooked to the Zone(X) and the green to the COM).
-- This differed from the Z5 PIR in that (the Z5 PIR) had the green wire attached to the NC and the white to the C, with no resistor.

I found a spare terminal block and a 5.6k resistor lying around in the 'can' along with other unwired wires...
I used the 5.6k resistor to mimic the wiring of the Z2 PIR to the Z5 PIR, to no avail (yes, I did replace the cover to  check whether the TAMP switch was the cause, but it was not).

Regards,

Hendrick
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 07:57:53 PM by Hendrick »

Ken_in_Pittsburgh

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2006, 08:38:55 PM »
Hendrick,

All right, so we know that your system does indeed use resistors. We can probably assume that zones 4 and 6 are door/window contacts, since the resistors for those zones are in the can (it's more problematic to place resistors properly at the end of the line with those contacts, so they are often placed in the can instead). Apparently, zone 5 has no resistor, either in the can or in the PIR itself. That's a problem. It may not be the only problem, but it is a problem. You took an extra resistor and used it to wire the Z5 PIR the same as Z2, which is working correctly, but that did not solve the problem. I would go back to the Z5 PIR and do what you did earlier: remove the white and green wires and connect one to each end of the resistor (in other words, bypass the PIR). If the zone still reads open, then just to make sure, take a known good resistor from another PIR and use it to join the wires in the Z5 PIR. If that STILL does not help, take the known good resistor and connect it in the can to Z5 and COM. All of those steps should lead us to a conclusion.

                           --Ken

Hendrick

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2006, 01:17:39 AM »
Hi Ken,

you are right, Z4 and Z6 are the glass breaker and 'can' tamper...

I tried connecting the white and green of the Z5 PIR with a 5.6k resistor and another time with a known 5.6k resistor, both times the keypad indicated that Z5 was 'open'.

As that had failed, I proceeded to the 'can' with the 5.6k resistor which was left in the 'can' by the installers in '99, I connected the Z5 and COM (to the right of Z5) terminals with the resistor, the result being that the keypad indicated that Z5 was 'closed'.

Regards,

Hendrick

Ken_in_Pittsburgh

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2006, 10:07:17 AM »
Well, I think we have it narrowed down. You connected Z5 and COM with a resistor, which closed the zone.  This proved that the control is okay and that the resistor is good.  But when you put that resistor between the two wires at the other end (inside the PIR), that failed to close the zone.  There is nothing left but to suspect the wire itself. Just to avoid unnecessary aggravation, I would double check by taking the same resistor that proved good in the can and connecting it between the white and green wires in the PIR, making sure the green and white are connected securely to Z5 and COM in the can, then checking to make sure the zone has not closed. This will establish that the wire is indeed at fault.  If so, you will need to pull a new wire. You may be able to use the old wire to pull a new one.  What is the physical setup?  What kind of house is this; new or old?  Where is the control panel and where is the PIR? Was the system installed when the house was built, or added later?

                         --Ken

Hendrick

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2006, 12:47:29 PM »
Hi Ken,

It definitely does not close when the white and green wires of the Z5 PIR are bridged by a 5.6k resistor...

The alarm system is in a small business, it has the ceiling boards for access, I also have access to the 'can' in a storage room, the alarm was installed when it was rebuilt in '98 - '99, we have had problems with the poor quality of workmanship of the contractors (some lights did not work, water leaking, etc.). The Z5 PIR is at the corner of the room to which I require a ladder to access it.

If you think it is the wire (and all of the troubleshooting so far indicates it is) I will take out the wire from the system and use a multimeter to check its continuity, I do not know if any local electrical shop sells the 4-in-1 cable.

Regards,

Hendrick

Ken_in_Pittsburgh

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2006, 01:59:26 PM »
Hi Hendrick,

    Everything does seem to point to the wire. I have a better image of the building now. I asked about when the system was installed, because wiring that is installed while a building is being built (or in this case, rebuilt) is often stapled in place, and therefore cannot be used to pull a new wire.  But it sounds as though you have pretty good access, and running a new wire shouldn't be much of a problem.  Checking the wire with a multimeter is also a good idea.  An electrical supply store should have the proper wire, although I don't believe the big home centers do.  It doesn't have to be that specific wire, of course.  22 gauge is recommended over thinner wire, more for physical strength than electrical properties. Some people prefer solid, some stranded. And the colors are of no consequence, as long as you keep track of how you use them.

                             --Ken

Hendrick

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2006, 12:07:29 AM »
Hi Ken,

removing the 4-in-1 wire has become more difficult than I thought. Apparently the original installers interlaced the Z5 4-in-1 wire with the glass breaker and the Z3 PIR... When I disconnected the white and green wires (connected to COM and Z5 in the can), Z3 was shown as 'open'; when I disconnected the power, Z3 PIR and the glass breaker was open (which triggered a tamper alarm) -- I think at least the Z3, Z5 and glass breaker wires are interlaced in one way or another...

Any suggestions into removing the Z5 PIR 4-in-1 cable without compromising the arming capability?

Regards,

Hendrick

Ken_in_Pittsburgh

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2006, 04:52:38 PM »
I've really been trying to make sense out of this. Disconnecting the Z5 zone wires should not cause zone 3 to show open. If the two PIR's were wired in series, they would be on the same zone! They could conceivably share the power wires (weird, but conceivable), but not the zone wires. There were probably two wires connected to the COM terminal; if you didn't reconnect the other wire, that could cause an open, but I'd think it would be zone 6, which shares the COM with zone 5 (although it doesn't absolutely have to). And disconnecting the power wires also showed the glassbreak as open, and that triggered a tamper alarm? I'm not sure where to go from here..... maybe open that suspended ceiling and start tracing the wires? This stuff really isn't that complex, especially with a zone for each device.  How about providing a list of exactly what is on each zone?

                      --Ken

Security Monitor

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2006, 07:10:40 PM »
Ken, What if the legs of the 4con are like this:
Leg 1 is Aux(+) PIR & GBD.
Leg 2 is Z PIR
Leg 3 is Z GBD
Leg 4 is bridged Aux(-), Com PIR, Com GBD
Removing 1 or 4 wouldn't that cause both zones to open ???



Ken_in_Pittsburgh

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Re: Unable to arm system (DSC 5010 or 5008)
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2006, 07:15:25 PM »
Yes, but the way he described it, legs 2 and 3 (green & white) both terminated inside PIR zone 5! What you described is a pretty unorthodox way of wiring it, wouldn't you say?

 

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